Talk:Secondary professions for an Elementalist
What do you mean by 'nasty' in the Paragon section? Big cleanup Trap eles and healing E/Rts?! I have removed a lot of bad advice, which sadly means most of the article. See my changes here — Skuld 11:22, 16 January 2007 (CST) :You seriously went overboard with that one, IMHO. "Nothing worth mentioning" is the last thing that should be on a guide. What was wrong with the guide suggesting using mesmer inspiration skills for energy management? Power Drain is always fun, and Channeling on a PBAoE ele is too. How about smiting E/Mos (the kind that throw around Balthazar's Aura and JI while spamming Draw with Master of Magic up), I guess they're no good either. What was wrong with the suggestion to use high-cost mesmer/rit/monk/necromancer skills on an ele primary, due to their terrific energy storage + energy management elites? If you don't care about Divine Favor (smiters, gvg eles with breeze and/or heal party and/or mending touch on their bars), if you don't care about Spawning Power (i.e. restoration, weapon spells, channeling), if you don't care about Fast Casting (mantra of earth +stone striker, or interrupts which are already 1/4s cast and such), then why the heck not be an ele primary, since you'll get a huge energy pool + things like Ether Prodigy, Master of Magic, Second Wind and others. :One thing to bear in mind is that usually if you have more secondary profession skills than primary profession skills, you're doing something wrong. <--- No, this statement is what's wrong. Skills are usable both when the profession is primary and when it's secondary. It's the primary attribute that differs classes from each other. If you're using a build where you need zero in your primary attribute, why not run it on a char whose primary you could actually use to be of help? Hint: Thumpers, thrashers, touchers who run a bunch of hammer/scythe/touch skills, yet use don't use warrior/dervish/necro as their primary; they use Ranger because it's expertise that helps them out more. Another? How about necros in classic bloodspike, who run all kinds of prot and heal spells? Another? How about those MoM E/Mo smiters you see on GvG these days? :Here's exactly what's left in your version of the guide. Ele secondaries can only be used for: #Winter and Energizing Wind. #Draw bot and Heal Party spammer. #Death's Charge, Shadow of Haste, Feigned Neutrality. #Mystic regeneration earth tank. #Earthbind. :That's ALL! Is that really all that 9 different professions have to offer to a primary ele? While I agree with some of the things that were removed, they were still too many not only harmless but helpful tips there. And most importantly, the motivation and reasoning behind this "culling" was flawed, in my opinion. This is more of a destructive change than a bettering one. :Adding the stub tag again. Will wait for comments from you or anyone else who feels like chipping in on the matter for a day or two, and will then try to rework the article once again. Let me know what your thoughts on the matter are.--Dirigible 20:23, 19 January 2007 (CST) ::Yeh, they have expertise which makes sense. Ele e-management elites don't work aswell as that, and the base effect its pretty crap, its just an exhaustion buffer for the most part. Necros' soul reaping is all fueled by jagged bones, which could be considered broken by some. Glyph of Lesser > power drain. MoM does need to go in, but I didn't remove that, it wasn't there in the first place. I'm not sure what the point about e-management was, monks have ZB, can use GoLE, have runes, rits have half a dozen eltie e-management options, plsu efficient heals and non-elite ones; if they don't care its a good idea to run ele primary? Good for them, it shouldn't go in the article though :-/ — Skuld 09:41, 21 January 2007 (CST) :::As much as I agree that an article cleanup should be a positive thing, this seems more like needless sandblasting on an article that did have good information. Am I wrong in assuming that the main point about these "Secondary Profession" articles is to list potential combinations to aid in a player making a choice for their secondary? Sure, this isn't a builds page (although other secondary pages link to them), but rather than discouraging players from choosing a particular profession simply because you, as one person of many, seem think that such a combination isn't viable, shouldn't the point of these articles be to list what is possible and let the player figure out how to make it work? Some people tend to forget that the reason why alot of builds are successful is because someone got creative enough to try something out, despite people believing it may not work. What the...? My God this is terrible... Can someone flag this article? There's more to Elementalist secondaries than this article (or whoever butchered it) is letting on, but, as I'm inexperienced in the Elementalist corner of the game, I'm not fit to restore it.—''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 24.89.253.231 ( ) 01:23, 20 January 2007. User:Skuld appears to have removed most of it. It was "culled"; by which he must mean took the best stuff out of the lot, but...the amount seems tiny, and surely lots of stuff is better than none at all... Leeroythefeared 09:23, 21 January 2007 (CST) :Lots of bad advice. Why would a lot be better than none? Point out stuff tha tshould have stayed! — Skuld 09:31, 21 January 2007 (CST) ::The stuff he removed was loads of crap, basically. Rangers trap better than eles; unless you're incredibly bored, no reason you should be trapping with an ele. E/W's are a funny sight, imo; they generally have this idea they're tanks, and die in about three seconds. Using a Mesmer elite for e-management when there are so many in the Elementalist line is a waste. E/Mos suck at healing, if you want to heal, use a monk or a rit. All of that was faulty advice that would just confuse people new to the class. -Auron 17:48, 24 January 2007 (CST) :::I use an E/Mo spam healer from time to time and I find it works quite well. E/Mos can afford to use Heal Other (in place of DF) and Heal Party a lot more. It's particularly good for Alliance Battles. Leeroythefeared 17:37, 14 June 2007 (CDT) i find e/n being a good combo, using blood magic hp stealing skills to help with the low healing skills of the elementalist, so u can heal while doing what the ele is good at, dealing damage. Can anyone tell me if it's ridiculous what i just said or not? :Using that kind of skill combination isn't a good idea. remember GW is a team based game where good team synergy makes a better winning situation. Monks/rits heal and support, eles can also support too but self healing with blood magic and wasting att points into it is kind of wasted, especially when aura of resortation is a better option for PvE, and you most likely already have a lot of points into energy storage. --[[User:Lania Elderfire|'Lania Elderfire']] 20:12, 31 March 2007 (CDT) E/P is not good Separate characters does the job better.--[[User:Lania Elderfire|'Lania Elderfire']] 20:37, 19 March 2007 (CDT) Explain? [[User:Solus| Solus]] 19px 02:46, 28 March 2007 (CDT) Erm... let's try not to violate GW:1RV. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) 02:47, 28 March 2007 (CDT) :fact of all of these pages is that the grand majority of secondary combinations are simply not as good as a "pure" primary build. most of the secondary skills in favored builds are unlinked. --Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 02:48, 28 March 2007 (CDT) Cautery Signet E/P with frigid armour is bad because... Cautery Signet is bad: you're taking the elite to remove conditions, yet Martyr is much more spammable, and Extinguish is non-elite. Eles have a bunch of decent elites, for the most part extinguish will suffice, PvE isn't stacked full of deadly conditions that heal party can't fix, and condition pressure is dead in PvP thanks to Mending Touch etc — Skuld 02:50, 28 March 2007 (CDT) Does it matter what is better, no? The arcitle is to help players choose a secondary proffesion for Primary Proffesions, not what skills work better. [[User:Solus| Solus]] 19px 02:52, 28 March 2007 (CDT) :Hence the note, "This combination yields little benefit for the elementalist." — Skuld 02:52, 28 March 2007 (CDT) :which is exactly why we should put something there, even if it's just one example build. (stacks of uncoordinated skills are still bad, thou) --Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 02:53, 28 March 2007 (CDT) :(Edit Conflict with Skuld AND Honorable Sarah) On the other hand though, we should document the fact that a secondary is bad so that users can make informed decisions and we don't end up with a bunch of people thinking E/P will make a great combination if in fact it won't. [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) 02:53, 28 March 2007 (CDT) Conseratives. [[User:Solus| Solus]] 19px 02:55, 28 March 2007 (CDT) :Now now, name calling isn't necessary (especially when you are talking to a blatant liberal on all things social). [[User:Defiant Elements|'Defiant Elements']] (talk ~ ) 02:56, 28 March 2007 (CDT) Don't worry, Skuld doesn't know what it means. I'll contact a Mod to see their point-of-view on this matter. [[User:Solus| Solus]] 19px 02:58, 28 March 2007 (CDT) : You're resorting to namecalling when you run out of points, GG — Skuld 03:26, 28 March 2007 (CDT) E/N On the contrary, I think it would be great. True, it's of little benefit for an elementalist, but if you're using your E/N for necromancy... simple. With such a huge energy pool, you can raise an army quickly. With said army, you can then raze another army, then raise said razed army. When I amass the money to purchase enough skills, I'm going to thoroughly test a wide array of necromancer builds; combined with aether prism, an unlimited source of energy to wreak enough havoc, the elite being used by the prism is negligible.. --59.100.74.71 07:03, 3 May 2007 (CDT) :ENERGY STORAGE IS NOT ENERGY MANAGEMENT. --Silk Weaker 05:54, 10 May 2007 (CDT) ::YOU DON'T NEED ENERGY MANAGEMENT WHEN YOU HAVE AN INEXHAUSTIVE POOL TO DRAW FROM. Why are you shouting? --59.100.0.162 20:48, 14 May 2007 (CDT) :::He's shouting because that has been said over and over and over and yet people still don't understand it. BigAstro 21:50, 14 May 2007 (CDT) ::::I can't see anyone misunderstanding energy storage and aether prism? --59.100.0.162 03:43, 15 May 2007 (CDT) :::::energy management is about making sure you have energy when you need it, for as long as you need it. Energy Storage is about providing the largest pool of energy to buffer for E management. a large water tower may survive one drought, but without some form of water management, you'll soon be in trouble. --Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 21:28, 14 June 2007 (CDT) delete see Category talk:Profession combinations#why delete --Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 22:37, 11 May 2007 (CDT) This page should not be deleted I use the "Secondary Proffesions" pages to help in my decisions for secondary proffesions. I do not care wether or not there is contriversy about the article. if the proffesion combination doesnt work then an amendment can be made. there is no need to delete the page. I disagree, these guides suck, and I am against all that they stand for. Please delete now... [[User:Readem|'Readem']] (''talk''* ) 17:46, 14 June 2007 (CDT) :i this these pages are totally nessisary, however i do not :#feel the will ever be up to the quality of either research style articles (Damage calculation, complex articles high a high barrier of proof) or documentary articles (elementalist armor, easily verified articles checkable by everyone), but will instead languish in the odd, inbetween space of builds and missions (complex articles, with hard to verify or subjective statements). :#see them ever finding a balance between the terse usablity of quick references and the sprawling completness of guides. :#use them myself :--Honorable Sarah image:Honorable_Icon.gif 18:37, 14 June 2007 (CDT) ::Sarah, I was giving this alot of thought back when deletion first came up and was working on an article in the form of making things more concrete than specific build suggestions: how can a different primary attribute benefit you, what skills could be useful if you have your heart set on a combo anyway, how another profession's skills might fill gaps in the primaries skill set and lastly, common combo synergy. I think it is possible to make this more than a flimsy list of suggestions. These articles should talk about the primary attributes and armor too. Reasons why combinations are not good as well as offering suggestions. Perhaps, this could even disaude a few mending wammos from previous issues. I'm thinking these secondary prof articles need some sort of overview to begin with. That's alot of what I was going for: User:JediRogue/Profession Combos. It still needs work but I think alot of stuff would be more useful than the existing articles. — [[User:JediRogue|'Rogue']] 19:00, 14 June 2007 (CDT) Ranger secondary Apply poison might be useful but i dont think so, but ignite arrows?!? really? waste of a slot and attribute points; bad tip, removing-Rabus 00:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC) :Wait, who said Apply Poison is useful on an Ele? o_O This is why we would be better off with these guides scrapped... (T/ ) 05:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Warrior secondary Feh, not as bad as you think. I've run an E/W through Proph and half of Factions (first time through Proph, too) will only a bit of trouble in a few areas. She's usually about 50/50 on skills... War is good for mor than just stances. With a couple of enchants and some Blessed Insignia, an ele can make up the armor difference and melee with the same or less monk backup than, say, a sin would need. Air Magic helps run down foes, Earth Magic makes tanking easy, and Mark of Rodgort synergizes with a fiery weapon and Hundred Blades (or Cyclone Axe, I suppose)... been running that last with great success since late Proph. Also, Conjures are your friend. Qing Guang 23:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC) :Wait, why are you tanking/melee with your ele when you could be 100% more effective as a nuker? (T/ ) 02:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC) ::Because I already have a nuker and I'm tired of her. I wanted another ele, but I wanted to do something different. Also, kind of fun to see people's reactions. I'm not saying everyone should do this; in fact, I recommend at least starting with a nuker. I'm just saying it's another option. Qing Guang 15:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC) :::Ahh okay, I was concerned there :p (T/ ) 20:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC) ::::XD Also, I'm going for Skill Hunter, and what's the fun if you don't actually use the skil? Also, stances ftw. Only when I went E/Me and tried to cap IW in Snake Dance did I realize how much I love Balanced Stance. Qing Guang 01:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)